18 reasons why your not growing!

[THE GRE8T 1NE]

I put this up on ukm, i think alot of peeps will benefit from this article, maybe it should be a sticky?:D

18 Reasons Why You're Not Growing: by Iron Addict
<hr style="color: rgb(226, 226, 226);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message --> Good artical by Iron Addict. If you don't know who he is maybe you should find out.

Here are some of the primary reasons most trainees don’t grow:

1. You overtrain and under eat. These are listed as the main primary reason because they go hand in hand and BOTH must be balanced or you can forget growth. The most perfect training regimen will fail miserably if diet is not there to support it. And conversely, the most perfect diet will be wasted if the trainee is doing more workload than they can recover from—most do WAY too much!

2. The training workload is not varied. Doing the exact same lift the same way stops being productive for most trainees within 3-8 weeks. Once the body has adapted to the loading it must be changed if you are to continue to force the body to adapt.

3. Too much focus on isolation exercises, not enough compound work. You can do all the “small” lifts until you are blue in the face, but until you are moving big poundage’s in the big lifts you will remain small. Which brings up point #4.

4. You MUST squat and deadlift if you are going to reach your bodies growth potential. Think it through. Doing squats or deads activates 70-85% of the bodies overall musculature in one move. Doing a set of curls maybe 3-5%. Which sends a big signal that the body better get better at synthesizing protein and better at handling the need to grow as a unit? You will NEVER reach your potential without doing the squats and deads.

5. You constantly fluctuate between lifts that have bad carry-over. Here is an example
I have seen many times, and one I have done myself. The trainee burns out on benching and decides to do Hammer Strength Benches for a change. He makes the switch and is jazzed. His Hammer press is going up every week and he is stoked. After a time he has added 50 lbs to his Hammer bench and decides to go back and hit the bench, only to find it’s up a whole 10 lbs!!!!!


That doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with Hammer Benches. It just means that the lifts are dissimilar enough that an increase in one may not necessarily help increase the lift on another. Use of stabilizers and inter and intra-muscular coordination are two primary reasons, along with neural recruitment pattern gains that don’t apply well to the other lift.

6. You don’t know when to de-load/cruise, or take time off. NO ONES body takes a constant pounding of hard training without periods of active or full rest recovery. Until you learn how and when to don this your training will never be optimal

7. Your micro-nutrient support SUCKS! I can’t count the number of guys I have seen trying to build great physiques taking a “one a day” vitamin and thinking they have it covered. If you want great things out of your body, you need to put great fuel in it.

8. You train with the intensity of a arthritic old lady. Nuff said.

9. You have no clearly defined goals. Most people just “lift to get bigger”, and while this is a fine goal, not having and strength related goals will kill your progress in the long run. Your primary goal should be getting stronger on the big lifts on a CONSTANT basis. Setting short and long-term strength goals and achieving them is what equals a big strong trainee in the long run.

10. You are inconsistent. Getting excited about your training and killing yourself in the gym only to burn out and few weeks later and miss a bunch of sessions ends up being 1 step forward, 3/4 steps backward for many trainees. Getting and staying consistent and racking up sustainable gains over the long-term is what it’s about.

11. You don’t do cardio. Most lifters don’t do cardio because they are convinced that it will impact their training. And they are right if they are talking about long duration high intensity cardio, or almost any high intensity cardio unless they work into it slowly. I suggest EVERYONE that doesn’t have a physical job that has them walking a lot during the day walk for at least 45 minutes a day. I also suggest 2-3 high intensity cardio sessions for everyone except extreme ecto’s. Don’t believe it, fine. Continue to get less than optimal results.

12. Your insulin sensitivity sucks. Trying to build a great body while having poor insulin sensitivity never works. You will always fight laying down bodyfat. You want the carbs to go to your muscles not your fat stores. And to the fat stores is where they go when glucose tolerance sucks.

13. You have poor sleep habits, Diet and training can be spot on, but if sleep sucks it isn’t going to happen. This not only includes getting the right amount of sleep, but getting it at the right time. All you guys and gals that stay up until 2:00 am and sleep late are creating a huge disadvantage for yourselves.

14. You are stressed. Diet, training, and sleep, and supplement support can all be dialed, but if you are a 24 hour stress machine you can forget solid gains. Stress releases a slew of stress hormones. Bottom line, stress hormones put the body in one mode; store bodyfat, catabolize muscle. Is this what you really want to do? Get a handle on your life stressors before they get a handle on you. As much as 75% of all illnesses are directly related to stress.

15. Too much outside activity. If your life is non-stop action til you drop, you are likely short circuiting the growth process. Many of you are involved in martial arts, have other physical hobbies and try to train 5-6 days a week. Not going to happen if max muscle mass is your goal. Balance is the key.

16. You jump from routine to routine. I see people on the forums changing their routines at the same rate many of them likely change their underwear. On one forum I frequent there is a guy that has done like 6 different routines in the last 10 weeks. You need at 17. least 4 weeks to determine a routines effectiveness. More in some cases dependent on structure. Find something that works, and has loading changes built into the framework that you are progressive with and use the damn thing.

17. You don’t believe in your training program. I am in the process of writing a full article on this so I will spare the details, but if you don’t believe in the program you are doing it is never going to work, simple as that. You WILL consciously or subconsciously sabotage something you are convinced won’t work. Simple as that.

18. The intensity or frequency of your workouts leaves CNS constantly drained. If CNS is continually dampened you will never be able to lift optimally. CNS drives every rep you do, and if it is beat to ****, you will never lift to your ability.

[christiantrojan]

hi the great one (lol) good physique man.
i have a feeling that a lot of the in experienced will read this so i think i have to n=mention your comment on doing the DEADLIFT and SQUAT. These are the very best exersises for building lots of bulky muscle i agree (along with bench press, military press, rows) but for all the beginners out there be v careful when doing squats and deadlift, start with light weights and very slowly increase wieght and gradually lower reps.

for hard gainers (ectomorphs) who are not on steriods to grow big quick. you should be doing no more than 12 sets per large body group for e.g back, legs, chest, shoulders and UNLESS YOU ARE A BEGINNER you should be aiming for 6-8 reps per set. and for the smaller body groups such as bicep and tricep just 8 sets per body group is sufficient to trigger growth. any thing above this and you could be over training.

CHRISTIAN TROJAN

[winger]

Most impressive ;)

[winger]

you should be aiming for 6-8 reps per set.
CHRISTIAN TROJAN
At what intensity? How many times a week? :rolleyes:

[christiantrojan]

"AT WHAT INTENSITY"
high intensity of weight.!
when trying to build extra muscle fibres we must aim to put them under stress.
This heavy height forces the muscle and connective tissue to grow. (after the gym, as we rest).
people who want to bulk up should only do 6 - 8 reps per set at a weight that they can only just achieve the 8 reps. ( NOT FOR BEGGINNERS)
So the weight which will probably be different each set should be so heavy that you cannot do nine reps.every set should be a struggle.
sorry winger mate does that answer your question

[christiantrojan]

"how many times a week"
well i train
day1) chest and triceps
day2) back and biceps
day3)legs
day4)shoulders
and every session i train with the above routine.
but only for approx 8 weeks or sometimes for 16 weeks, after that i do 8 weeks of high reps training 15 sets and 10 to 15 reps per set.(if i feel like cutting)

[winger]

"how many times a week"
well i train
day1) chest and triceps
day2) back and biceps
day3)legs
day4)shoulders
and every session i train with the above routine.
but only for approx 8 weeks or sometimes for 16 weeks, after that i do 8 weeks of high reps training 15 sets and 10 to 15 reps per set.(if i feel like cutting)
I did the push pull routine for years and loved it. I like your routine alot.
I would say most of the guys in my gym train that way. :)

[christiantrojan]

YEA ITS ALRIGHT BROTHER. SO IT SAYS ON YOUR POSTS YOU FROM CALIFORNIA. IS THAT TRUE I THIUGHT THIS WAS JUST A UK WEBSITE:topic:

[winger]

YEA ITS ALRIGHT BROTHER. SO IT SAYS ON YOUR POSTS YOU FROM CALIFORNIA. IS THAT TRUE I THIUGHT THIS WAS JUST A UK WEBSITE:topic:
It is, the lovely Brits welcome me with open arms. ;)

[christiantrojan]

COOL.:welcome: TO GOOD OLD TEA DRINKING BRITAIN

[winger]

COOL.:welcome: TO GOOD OLD TEA DRINKING BRITAIN
Thanks Mate!

[JD1]

Fine Post...think i can remember that on UKM

[CantGain]

I do all of the above nut can't gain any lean size or strength, hoewever, fat is another matter and that comes easily. Been training 6 years and must have some abnormality that doesnt allow me to gain muscle or strength, I look like I've never even seen a barbell let alone ever picked one up.

[winger]

I do all of the above nut can't gain any lean size or strength, hoewever, fat is another matter and that comes easily. Been training 6 years and must have some abnormality that doesnt allow me to gain muscle or strength, I look like I've never even seen a barbell let alone ever picked one up.Post up your diet and training, im sure we can help. ;)

[CantGain]

I'm sure you cant! lol

I've had my diet designed by a bodybuilding nutritionist and I'm being trained my a well respected internet bodybuilding/strength coach!

It's not diet or training related, I know that much, it can't be - I've looked at diet and training aspects for a long time now, everything I thought was wrong, I corrected and I've been told it could be stress related.

I've had SHBG levels checked - came back ok
Testosterone levels checked - came back ok
Thyroid checked - came back ok
I take digestive enzymes
I use a very abreviated training routine
I eat extremely well - big and clean
I eat enough protein and tend not to rely on protein shakes
I get enough good fats
because I'm a skinny fat dude I tend to stay away from simple carbs

There are hardgainers - these are people that usually doing something wrong within their bodybuilding lifestyle, beit rest, training wronly/too much/overtraining, not eating enough, eating the wrong ratios etc and once these are corrected they start gaining - maybe not as well as others but they do start gaining once everything is in place.

I'm not one of those people, I've been training 6 years, and reliously for 4 years, no booze, 100% commited, read books, articles, websites, tried so many different routines, concentrated on my diet and still results/gains didnt improve.

Even though I thought my diet was great, I paid for a bodybuilding nutritionsit to sort my diet out and to be honest the diet was changed that much, it was pretty good prior to paying for the nutrionist, I just didnt know what else to try so I gave him a whirl.

Extreme hardgainers just don't have the genes and it seems I have a lot going against me. I've probably gained 5lbs of muscle in the 6 years of training.

Exterme hardgainers are usually insulin reistant which obviously doesnt help, so that will be factor in this, then there's the stress - I've suffered from pysciatric disorders for half my life now so it could be something to do with that also. I've just found out that I have irittable bowl symdrome so I'm trying to correct that.]

So does anyone have any ideas what could be preventing me from gaining muscle? please don't ask about training or diet; I've been here 100s of times before, and I know it isnt training or diet, there's no way on gods earth it could be anything to do with either of those things and I'm 100% certain of that.

just going back to the stress - I've been through periods of a few months where I've felt fine, no real stress and the gains were still non existent so I'm a little dubious about that being the main problem. My CNS could be so fragile that maybe it just won't allow me to gain strength or muscle? I can't be bashing my CNS too hard on the extreme abreviated routine I'm on right now anyway. Sleep is good as well.

I'm trying to get to the bottom of this, so if anyone has any suggestions that might help, then please post them!

cheers.

[D T]

Hi Mate, I'm away for a week so can't reply straight back, but i'd like to get the ball rolling with a few Qs.

1. What is the abbreviated routine?
I know it has been designed for you, but I think it still needs explaining.

2. Are you natural or taking gear?

3. What line of work do you do. Manual or sedintary?

[CantGain]

Hi Mate, I'm away for a week so can't reply straight back, but i'd like to get the ball rolling with a few Qs.


1. What is the abbreviated routine?
I know it has been designed for you, but I think it still needs explaining.

2. Are you natural or taking gear?

3. What line of work do you do. Manual or sedintary?

Hi, and thanks for the reply :)

I can't really talk about the abreviated routine in too much detail because it's one of the conditions of my trainer. But it is twice a week training (Mon+Thurs) and reallu is low volume.

I have taken gear before in the past, I've done a few cycles with no real gains other than strength and water; gear was legit (no doubt about that) and from a good source. I understand that some people don't respond well to gear and need bigger doses - I have taken up to 1750mgs OF TEST E/Sus a week with no gains! I've also read that genuine (extreme) hardgainers don't respond to gear very well. I started off on 500mgs sus/week 25mgs dbol/day, 400mgs EQ/week, but have also tried Test E, Prop, Tren and Drol. the tren and dbol cycles were the best in terms of strength, and I blew up with water retention, probably gained about a stone of water - I really did look bigger but had a massive face, neck. i knda knew it was all water, or at least most of it was and the little muscle that I may have gained soon went during PCT. I'm not even sure that any of it was muscle.

My job involves me sat on my ass most of the day and isnt at all stressful, I basically get paid to sit and P*** about on the internet all day lol

My trainer thinks it's stress related but I'm not 100% sure on that. I have body dysmorphic disorder/muscle dysmorphia, anxiety and depression. the depression comes and goes as does the anxiety - I tend to avoid situations that make me anxious. But the BDD/MD is with me all the time and I get left feeling frustrated with the lack of gains.

My trainer says we will get to the bottom of it and I don't doubt that, he's the most knowledgeable person I've ever come across regarding strength/bodybuilding, but in the meantime I want to look into EVERY possible aspect hence this post. I may even come across someone that has been/is in my situation. this isn't normal and for the amount of time/money/effort I've put in, I'd at least expect to look like Brad pitt in Fight club - he has more muscle than I do! lol

[D T]

Well no one can say you havn't tried.

1. Is your training based on a similar routine to Dogcrap Training?

I am only training 3 days per week after sitting back a bit in the gym for the last 2 years due to work, college and family commitments.
I am just training heavy, with basic compounds on 2 days with a full body high rep workout in between. I have sorted my diet out to be squeeky clean mon to fri and have put on 18 ibs in 4 weeks.
The reason I state this is that I am a firm believer in not overtraining so I don't think you are going wrong there.

2. Are you going to go back on the juice and would you consider taking 12.5mcg of T3 to promote protein synthesis?
I think this will help(Any body else agree?).

3. Would you consider getting up about 3am in the morning to drink something like Build & Recover?

Right, I have to f**k off now 'cos my missus is shouting at me to sort my bag out. I'm sure some of the other guys can jump in here as well and help.

[CantGain]

DC training is one of many routines I've tried.

Overtraining isnt an issue, I've tried alsorts of training and got nowhere with anything.

I'm gonna stay clean until I find some way of getting results, I don't fancy taking gear when nothing happens - ive even tried IGF.

I am a skinng fat dude, so anything more than i currently eat would lead to more fat gain.

I'm on a cut right now anyway.

Cheers for trying though :)

[winger]

Here is a routine (one of many) that I am doing now.

Day 1) delts & tri's
Day 2) rest
Day 3) quads & calves
Day 4) rest
Day 5) chest & bi's
Day 6) rest
Day 7) back & Hams
Day 8) rest
Day 9) Delts again, & so on. remember though, rest an extra day
wherever needed if joints still feeling fatigued. An extra days rest is
always preferable to cramming a workout in just because you feel you
have to. Come back the next day more refreshed & more eager to attack
the weights.

If you want to try it be my guest.
First set is real light, second set is another warm up and third set is to all out failure, then off to next exercise. I like to stay between 8-12 reps.
I do 2-3 exercises per body part and most of the exercises are basic compound movements. So I am only doing 2-3 sets to failure per body part. That's very low volume.

Get a journal and if your not getting stronger you need more time off.
I am a firm believer that with strength comes size. You are going to have to force your body to get bigger.

I know you have your diet squared away, but most of the carbs should be from fruits and veggies that are low glycimic carbs. Oatmeal is a good carb as well.

[CantGain]

I take it your reply was to me?

I only have complex carbs and just 30 grams of simple carbs post workout.

The routine you have posted is more frequency and more volume than I am currently doing, I basically do 6 work sets a week using 4 compound lifts.. I'm prepared to give this routine a bit more time, but if I'm not gaining on this routine then I won't gain on the routine you've posted :(

[winger]

I take it your reply was to me?

I only have complex carbs and just 30 grams of simple carbs post workout.

The routine you have posted is more frequency and more volume than I am currently doing, I basically do 6 work sets a week using 4 compound lifts.. I'm prepared to give this routine a bit more time, but if I'm not gaining on this routine then I won't gain on the routine you've posted :(
So are you making strength gains on your present routine?

On that routine I posted you are only hitting the same body part every 9 days.

[CantGain]

thanks for replying :)

I'm still struggling with making any sort of gains TBH, but I'm working with it with my trainer. he really is among the best in what he does so I'll be going with what he has planned for me.

I'm just looking into why I can't gain, there's has to be more to it than CNS and maybe when I have found out what it is, maybe I can go about correcting it.

I noticed that there's some overlapping in your routine - you train shoulders and chest on different days and although you say you only hit each muscle group once every nine days, you actually hit your shoulders twice in 5 (?) days.

I even did abreviated workouts on gear with little success.

[winger]

Thank-you for noticing. ;)

Let's not leave out bicep and triceps then. Anytime you push or pull it hits the arms. Notice the amount of sets for arms? :rolleyes:

[CantGain]

yeah but what I'm getting at that it may be bad if I was to have overlapping in my routine and the routne I'm using at the moment doesn't really invole any overlapping, arms get trained once - bi's and tris on the same day and then I do one set of dealifts on another day.

[winger]

Are you getting stronger on your lifts?

[D T]

I would still consider taking a drink around 3am. If not a build & recover style drink then Pure protein or whey in water.
This is not going to make you fat. It just feeds your body during the night while you are sleeping as 8 hours is a long break between meals.
Speak with your trainer on this and maybe try it for a month.

[winger]

I would still consider taking a drink around 3am. If not a build & recover style drink then Pure protein or whey in water.
This is not going to make you fat. It just feeds your body during the night while you are sleeping as 8 hours is a long break between meals.
Speak with your trainer on this and maybe try it for a month.
Very nice, I actually did this with good results.
There is no such thing as super nutrition, but there is a thing called optimum nutrition.

Their are so many factors involved so it's hard to focus on one area, but sleep might be your problem.
I snore really bad and my wife wakes me up when I do. If you snore you are probably in rem sleep, well my wife wakes me up when I snore so I wasn't getting good sleep. Now I use a cpap breathing machine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPAP_machine). If you snore you might want to check it out.

[big]

IMO 8 hours proper sleep is superior to broken sleep with a shake halfway through the night.

Add to this the fact that during the evening (and when you sleep), your digestive system also goes to sleep, and I just can't see how the shake will properly be digested anyway.

Just IMO, but there's no reason why you can't get enough food in during the day... and aside from that, sleep > waking+shake for recovery.

[big]

Are you getting stronger on your lifts?

:agree:

Now THAT'S the question to be asking :)

[D T]

Big, I would love to sleep a straight 8 hours solid, but I never go all night without waking to go to the toilet. Therefore, if I am awake then why not use that opportunity to take in some protien.

I would say this definately helped me to gain some size in the earlier years of my training.

This is why I suggest that it be tried for a month. If it doesn't work, then knock it on the head. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Master Of Puppets]

no response yet, eh? i just read through the whole thread...

MOP

[CantGain]

Hi again,

Just wondered if anyone might have an answer yet?

It's been 15 months since my last post in this thread and I'm still pressing 57.5kg!

[winger]

Hi again,

Just wondered if anyone might have an answer yet?

It's been 15 months since my last post in this thread and I'm still pressing 57.5kg!
If you are not making gains in strength then you need more time off!
Most people I know over train. I suspect you are too.

Can you post up your present routine? We can and will tweak it. ;)

[bigsteve1974]

Hi again,

Just wondered if anyone might have an answer yet?

It's been 15 months since my last post in this thread and I'm still pressing 57.5kg!

right then..... you say yiou have IBS.... then firstly without doubt i would go for Colonic Irrigation...this really does work....

secondly mate.... CHILL out to me you seem to be looking way to deep into things ... take a Bloody BIG step back and go with the flow... your actually fighting against yourself by WORRYING that your not growing...

STRESS = CORTISONE... which you aint going to Grow.. no matter how hard you try ......:hitting:

have you tried Insulin,...... in your job its Perfect... if your just sitting there all day then there would be no reason WHy you couldnt have a couple of shots of FAST acting/day.. and see how you get on with that......

What exactly do you eat in a day... post up your exact diet....

Steve

[CantGain]

Cheers you two!

Winger, I'm only training 2 days a week and each session lasts an hour.

I have tried so many ways of training and just fail every time (Ive been training 8 years or so now)

My problem has to go beyond what routine I'm using or my diet, as I've had two bodybuilding nutrionists work with me and two trainers and I've tried so many ways of training. I do eat well, as I gain fat... I've even gone as high as 350 grams of protein a day.

I've had a 4 point cortisol test, and the results showed everything was normal - but I realise this doesnt mean I dont have a problem with cortisol so I take Rhodiola rosea juts in case.

and bigsteve, it's funny that you mention insulin - I've actually been reading about how to use it, as I'm now considering using it - I think there's many people out there who would tell me I was stupid for doing so, but I'm willing to give anything ago if it will help.

[Dave W]

Cantgain Hi mate i have put apost on how to use slin mate have a read. I know you say you are working with a nutrionist post your diet up mate maybe we can help. I have a really fast metabolism mate and struggle to put weight on no matter how much i eat , but by tweaking a couple of things and using chems i get there. Weight dont really bother me its how i look and the small changes i make to my body over a period of time.

As Steve correctly says Stress = cortisone which is no good in the growing phase.

Get your diet up mate and training programme and between us all we should come up with a plan that will work .

Dave

[CantGain]

Cheers Dave

I dont have a fast metabolism - Im the complete opposite from you, I gain fat easily, on what people would consider a low calorie diet. I'm reluctant to post my diet, because I always get told to eat more - something that just isnt possible, I've been there many times and end up carrying too much body fat. But don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who is scared of gaining fat.. i dont exactly like it, but I kinda expect it, I just can't be doing with carrying too much... and I always end up fat, needing to lose weight without gaining any muscle or strength, so then i have to cut for weeks/months and the cycle continues.

Can I just ask about insulin - how goood is it? I know everyone responds differently, but is it better than AAS?

I'm beining to think that myostatin might be the problem.

[winger]

It's kind of tough to help you without any info. Post up your diet and training routine and lets take a look.

I did very well on the, "Zone Diet". That's 40-30-30.

[bigsteve1974]

Cheers Dave

I dont have a fast metabolism - Im the complete opposite from you, I gain fat easily, on what people would consider a low calorie diet. I'm reluctant to post my diet, because I always get told to eat more - something that just isnt possible, I've been there many times and end up carrying too much body fat. But don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who is scared of gaining fat.. i dont exactly like it, but I kinda expect it, I just can't be doing with carrying too much... and I always end up fat, needing to lose weight without gaining any muscle or strength, so then i have to cut for weeks/months and the cycle continues.

Can I just ask about insulin - how goood is it? I know everyone responds differently, but is it better than AAS?

I'm beining to think that myostatin might be the problem.

if you hold fat easy then insulin may NOT be the way to go.. insulin will make you fat..........Unless you eat extremeley strict... there are LUCKY people(dave w) who could probabaly eat fish and chips every night and stay lean... but likes of me and you put a stone on just from the smell......

in all honesty mate im yet to meet a person who doesnt grow if they are following a strict regime... especially after 6 years.....maybe one solution would be to get as fat as **** then,.. diet down and see whats underneath...but helath issues can occur......i got myslef up to 25 stome once....(never again tho):wall:

[CantGain]

cheers bigsteve,

yes, I had a feeling that may be the case about insulin.

but would it really make me that fat? I get a lot of carbs down me in my post workout shake (100) then have a good 50grams in my meal 1.5hrs later, so would a few more carbs really make that much difference in fat storage? I realise I'd start off at 2iu, then work up to 5 and see how that goes. I'd not add any fat to my diet in the time the insulin is active in my body (4-5hrs). But if you think it isnt a good idea, then please say so.

You said:

"maybe one solution would be to get as fat as **** diet down and see whats underneath"

do you mean with the use of insulin, or not?

my heaviest was 176lbs, I then dieted down to 130lbs, but even at that weight I had some fat around my lower back, legs and arms - since then I've put on about 10-12lbs but added a couple of inches to my waist (now 30 inches) - that's happened over the last 9 months.

some of you have asked me to add my routine and diet (and I will do) - you'll probably tell me to do something different, but because I've tried so many different ways of doing things, the chances are I've probably already tried it.

Just out of interest, for someone in my position, what kind of training would you lot recommend?

Is there a chance that myostatin is the cause of my problem? I'm beging to think I have an abnormally high level that prevents me from gaining - I honestly dont believe it's diet or training related, it can't be.

I'm just going to get something to eat, I'll post my diet and routine up when I'm back.

[winger]

So you are weighing in at about 145 lbs with a 30" waist, that's not bad. I got the impression you were much fatter than that.

A guy your size needs more mass. I would stick to a more westside type of training using basic compound movements. Bench, squats, dead lifts, military, pull-ups and dips, obviously there are variations of that.
If you get stronger in those your body is going to have to adapt to the added weight and stimulus. If you just keep lifting and you don't get stronger then maybe you are over training or not getting enough/good sleep.

Sleep is often over looked, but low tes levels can come down to poor or not enough sleep.

[CantGain]

hi winger,

well i weigh 140-142lbs -- I'm not as lean as I once was.. I bet if I got down to 8-10% I'd have a 27 inch waist, so even with a 30 waist, I still have some fat.

The exercises you mentioned I do, all except dips (for the moment) usually two sets per lift.

and my test levels (had them checked three times) are all in the normal range.

Sleep is now better due to me not eating within 1.5-2hours before bed, I also cut liquids out in that time to prevent me from waking 2-3 times a night for a waz... I also take ZMA which helps.

I'm gonna burn me food if Im not careful lol brb.

[winger]

hi winger,

well i weigh 140-142lbs -- I'm not as lean as I once was.. I bet if I got down to 8-10% I'd have a 27 inch waist, so even with a 30 waist, I still have some fat.

The exercises you mentioned I do, all except dips (for the moment) usually two sets per lift.

and my test levels (had them checked three times) are all in the normal range.

Sleep is now better due to me not eating within 1.5-2hours before bed, I also cut liquids out in that time to prevent me from waking 2-3 times a night for a waz... I also take ZMA which helps.

I'm gonna burn me food if Im not careful lol brb.
2 sets per lift is good. I do one set to failure myself and then off to the next exercise. Sometimes less is more for us hard gainers.

[bigsteve1974]

.. the insulin at just 2iu or even 5iu wont make you Fat.. persoanllay i would start at 5 then up to 10iu.....

i know some might slate me for this,, but it could be possible for you to do 10iu 3 times a day obviously this is the advanced user method... so wake up inject 10iu then eat say 7am... you then eat again 8.30am... then u then eat again 10.30am...... your second shot is 12pm..you eat,.,, then eat again at 1..30pm.... then meal at 3.30pm..... then your last showt would PWO...say 7pm... eat then eat 8.30... then eat 10.30..... for you i would also suggets an MRP at 2am...

doing this way at 5 times a week not on weekends... for 4 weeks..... also creatinead while doing it...... ...... but thats me.. and yes i have tried it....and ive also done by taking a big amount (30iu) before training and constantly sipping Virtago during training...... but just do it this way on legs,back and chest days.... there are sooooooo many different ways... but first start at 5iu PWO....

TRAINING... i would train EOD... heavy and basic... then after say 4 weeks add some giant sets.. some triple drop sets,.,, shock your body...

WHERE DO YOU LIVE......

[CantGain]

2 sets per lift is good. I do one set to failure myself and then off to the next exercise. Sometimes less is more for us hard gainers.

so how often do you train?

I was always told not to go to failure, but over the last couple of months I've been trying it a little more though I don't always go to failure and if I do, it's only on one set per lift.


and bigsteve, I wouldn't consider using at that dose, not for a while yet. I'm still not sure if I'm going to use slin either just yet..

[winger]

so how often do you train?

I was always told not to go to failure, but over the last couple of months I've been trying it a little more though I don't always go to failure and if I do, it's only on one set per lift.

This is my present routine.

All lifts performed without belt, straps or wraps.

Day 1) delts & tri's
Day 2) rest
Day 3) quads & calves
Day 4) rest
Day 5) chest & bi's
Day 6) rest
Day 7) back & Hams
Day 8) rest
Day 9) Delts again, & so on. remember though, rest an extra day
wherever needed if joints still feeling fatigued. An extra days rest is
always preferable to cramming a workout in just because you feel you
have to. Come back the next day more refreshed & more eager to attack
the weights.

[bigsteve1974]

This is my present routine.

All lifts performed without belt, straps or wraps.

Day 1) delts & tri's
Day 2) rest
Day 3) quads & calves
Day 4) rest
Day 5) chest & bi's
Day 6) rest
Day 7) back & Hams
Day 8) rest
Day 9) Delts again, & so on. remember though, rest an extra day
wherever needed if joints still feeling fatigued. An extra days rest is
always preferable to cramming a workout in just because you feel you
have to. Come back the next day more refreshed & more eager to attack
the weights.


PERFECT...

[pscarb]

Cantgain have you posted up your diet? if not why not? there are two main reasons why guys do not gain..
1 - overtraining
2 - lack of calories
seeing as you say you train only twice a week then we can rule out number one and go straight to number two...
so what is your exact diet (amounts of food and times eaten) then we can help you otherwise we are only guessing

[CantGain]

This is what I ate on my last training. But please don't say 'eat more' - I'm gaining fat steadily as it is. I eat every 3 hours. I used to eat 6 meals a day, but at that time I used to go to bed, and would lie awake for ages before drifting off which wasnt good because the next day I'd feel **** having had not enough sleep, so I don't eat within 1.5-2hrs of bed and sleep well now. I know all about carbs + fats = fat storage, but it's not like I'm having a huge amount of fats with the carbs, so that shouldnt be too much of a problem.

meal 1
2 weebatbix
whey shake + milk (not that much milk though and sometimes use liquid egg whites)
10 grams fish oil


meal 2:
1.5 tins tuna
few slices of cucumber
green beans
peas
50g low fat coleslaw
50g muesli
20 grams almonds

TRAIN -- 10-15 grams of BCAAs



Post workout shake
70 grams complex carbs
30 grams simple
40 grams whey



meal 3:
1.5 hours after post workout shake
250 grams lean mince beef
half tin tomatos
half an onion
15 grams almonds
15 grams tomato sauce
bowl of muesli (50g)

meal 4:
chicken breast
1 slice of brown bread
salad
10 grams olive oil
amonds


meal 5:
tin of tuna
cucumber
15 grams almonds
coleslaw

[CantGain]

Cantgain have you posted up your diet? if not why not? there are two main reasons why guys do not gain..
1 - overtraining
2 - lack of calories
seeing as you say you train only twice a week then we can rule out number one and go straight to number two...
so what is your exact diet (amounts of food and times eaten) then we can help you otherwise we are only guessing

and I honestly don't think it is diet - it's been a while since I worked with the nutrionists, and when I was working with them, I was eating more than I am now and just ended up a right fat bastard without adding any lean weight. Although I'm eating less, I'm still gaining fat at a much slower rate.

[pscarb]

well it must be something and these two are the main culprits so post up your diet at least then you will know

[CantGain]

I already have mate, it's on the last page.

[bigsteve1974]

This is what I ate on my last training. But please don't say 'eat more' - I'm gaining fat steadily as it is. I eat every 3 hours. I used to eat 6 meals a day, but at that time I used to go to bed, and would lie awake for ages before drifting off which wasnt good because the next day I'd feel **** having had not enough sleep, so I don't eat within 1.5-2hrs of bed and sleep well now. I know all about carbs + fats = fat storage, but it's not like I'm having a huge amount of fats with the carbs, so that shouldnt be too much of a problem.

meal 1
2 weebatbix
whey shake + milk (not that much milk though and sometimes use liquid egg whites)
10 grams fish oil


meal 2:
1.5 tins tuna
few slices of cucumber
green beans
peas
50g low fat coleslaw
50g muesli
20 grams almonds

TRAIN -- 10-15 grams of BCAAs



Post workout shake
70 grams complex carbs
30 grams simple
40 grams whey



meal 3:
1.5 hours after post workout shake
250 grams lean mince beef
half tin tomatos
half an onion
15 grams almonds
15 grams tomato sauce
bowl of muesli (50g)

meal 4:
chicken breast
1 slice of brown bread
salad
10 grams olive oil
amonds


meal 5:
tin of tuna
cucumber
15 grams almonds
coleslaw



aaaaaaahhhhhh../..way to lean......that aint eating......:rulez:

[bigsteve1974]

FCUK it try this

meal 1:- 100gms oats... 2 scoops whey

meal 2:- 2 tins tuna.. whole pack (1 sachet0 of ainslee harriot cous cous(pscarb's idea--- lovely),, 1 banana

Meal 3:- 250gms chicken, 250gms(cooked weight basmati rice) 1 tbsp olive oil.

Meal 4:- SAME AS MEAL 1

Meal 5 pwo - 2 scoops cwrb powder ,, 50gms of whey..

meal 6 around 8pm:- 1 large bake potatoe. 300gms mince beef(lean).. add dolmio sauces..

Meal 7;-300gms steak.4 boiled eggs.... depending how your budget is..

Meal 8 2am :- 50gms whey 50gms ready brek in a shaker......

try this if you dont grow.. then time to take up a different sport (only joking)...

[CantGain]

Thanks, but like I said earlier - I'm gaining fat at the moment on that kind of diet I posted. If I eat what bigsteve posted, I'd blow up huge in a very short space of time. I've already gained 12lbs of fat in the last few months, so surely that suggests I'm eating enough, doesnt it?

I've been on 350 grams of protein a day and also had higher carbs in there too, but nothing improves in the gym - I just ended up getting fat as **** with a 36 inch a waist and there's nothing worse than getting to that size without getting stronger, then having to spend the next few months cutting, I'll get back down to a comfortable weight, then go again - the whole cycle starts again; getting fatter and fatter without increasing strength and before I know it, I'm cutting again.

That's why I think that diet and training isn't the problem.



Thanks again.

[bigsteve1974]

Thanks, but like I said earlier - I'm gaining fat at the moment on that kind of diet I posted. If I eat what bigsteve posted, I'd blow up huge in a very short space of time. I've already gained 12lbs of fat in the last few months, so surely that suggests I'm eating enough, doesnt it?

I've been on 350 grams of protein a day and also had higher carbs in there too, but nothing improves in the gym - I just ended up getting fat as **** with a 36 inch a waist and there's nothing worse than getting to that size without getting stronger, then having to spend the next few months cutting, I'll get back down to a comfortable weight, then go again - the whole cycle starts again; getting fatter and fatter without increasing strength and before I know it, I'm cutting again.

That's why I think that diet and training isn't the problem.

I really hope this isn't coming across as though I'm not listening, or that I'm ignorant, and I hope you don't think I'm scared of adding a bit of fat.. It's just I've been down this road before and all I've gained is a **** load of fat and nothing else.

Thanks again.


CANTGAIN...... CArdio mate.:agree: .... get the cals in and control the fat with T3 and some cardio... there's always an answer mate.......

[CantGain]

but how much cardio?

I already do cardio twice a week.

but never considered T3 before though - any info on this?

[bigsteve1974]

but how much cardio?

I already do cardio twice a week.

but never considered T3 before though - any info on this?


3 times a week.. first thing in the morning.... T3.... i will leave that to the experts to explain,...

Steve

[winger]

The cardio that makes the most sense to me is Tabatas cardio or tabats cardio.
That's 20 seconds all out, 10 seconds cool down and do that 8 times.
It comes out to 4 minutes of cardio and that's it. Here is a video just as an example, click here (http://broadbandsports.com/node/18960).

[CantGain]

I do similar to that, I do HIIT for 15-20 minutes once a week and a normal cardio session the other time for 30-45 mins depending on time.

So eating more (even though I'm gaing fat at the moment) and adding one more cardio session a week will make me start gaining in some form?

[winger]

When gaining weight naturally you will put on some fat, the key is to put on minimal fat.
You could try this ratio of carbs/protein/fats. I wrote this up for a friend of mine named Peg. Hence that is why her name in mentioned.

I thought ratios were easy if you keep it simple.
Barry Sears had one block as follows.
9 grams of carbs.
7 grams of protein.
3 grams of fat.

For an average female if memory serves it was 11 blocks and for a male it was 14 blocks. That is one small man actually. I did 17 blocks and lost to fast and bumped it up to 19 blocks.

So lets do it for Peg. This is an example of a 11 block day. He also gives examples of what foods are a block, like a head of iceberg lettuce is one block. An apple is two blocks of carbs. Get the idea?

1. Breakfast 3 blocks. 27 grams of carbs, 21 grams of protein, 9 grams of fat.
2. Snack 1 block. 9 grams of carbs, 7 grams of protein, 3 grams of fat.
3. Lunch 3 blocks. 27 grams of carbs, 21 grams of protein, 9 grams of fat.
4. Snack 1 block. 9 grams of carbs, 7 grams of protein, 3 grams of fat.
5. Dinner 3 blocks. 27 grams of carbs, 21 grams of protein, 9 grams of fat.

Notice how adding up all of her blocks comes out to be 11 blocks.

Also, a very knowledgeable friend of mine likes these ratios better, just throwing that out there for ya. 34p/33f/33c

[CantGain]

that's interesting and something I've not come across. Though I'm a little concerened with carbs late in the day - when I was working with the nutrionists, when I started putting on stupid amounts of fat, I was told to drop the carbs and to have a carb cut off which obviously helped as fat gain slowed somewhat.

But having said that, the carb portions were bigger with each meal, so maybe the smaller portions will allow me to eat them later into the day?

Something to look at though, so thanks for posting it!

[bigsteve1974]

that's interesting and something I've not come across. Though I'm a little concerened with carbs late in the day - when I was working with the nutrionists, when I started putting on stupid amounts of fat, I was told to drop the carbs and to have a carb cut off which obviously helped as fat gain slowed somewhat.

But having said that, the carb portions were bigger with each meal, so maybe the smaller portions will allow me to eat them later into the day?

Something to look at though, so thanks for posting it!

try and keep things as SIMNPLE as possible.. why complicate things......

EAT BIG be BIG... EAT **** LOOK ****...... EAT SMALL BE SMALL.....? try it.. increase your cals add cardio... then lets see where you get:)

[CantGain]

steve mate, 'EAT BIG TO GET BIG' - first thing I ever learnt about training. I've probably got a LBW of 115lbs - I've been as high as 176lbs - when I eat big, I just get fat, dont add strength or any muscle! lol it's a nightmare!

[Dave W]

If your lean body is115lbs you should be able to grow on a diet consiting of 230 grams protein 345 carbs and 70 grams fats approx 2500 ks keep the cardio in as steve says then slowly alter your diet if putting to much fat on either up your cardio or drop your carbs if not gaining then up your kals by 300 per day and so on. Just keep monitoring your body fat and cycle carbs and cardio

Dave

[CantGain]

that's 3000 cals isnt it?

I won't be able to handle 345 carbs a day, I know that through experience.

I feel like a bit of an ass - I do appreciate you trying to help, but my lack in gains goes beyond diet or training. I've tinkered with ratios over the years and everything thus far hasnt worked.

the ratios you mention there, the protein and fats, that's what I get daily, though the protein is slightly higher and even a littlemore higher on training days.

I get about 150-200 carbs a day and higher on training days - 250-300

the highest I've been is 3500-3750 cals a day.

[winger]

I would train like a power lifter and eat like a bodybuilder.

[winger]

Here is my take on all of this. Unless you can post up a routine or routines that didn't work for you there is no way we can help another brother out. So let me just keep taking stabs in the dark....lol

IMO, it is all about adding weight to the bar, especially at your size. So what do we do, you go back to basics.
If I were you, I would do 3 basic exercises twice a week. When you reach your peak we will tweak.

Bench, squats and dead-lifts.
Now most will tell you to take one week off before this, just telling you what most will...he he.

So on each of these exercises I want you to back off the poundage by 20% within the 5-8 rep range.

Each exercise add 5% to it each week and after the 5th week you should be up above your max. If not, back off again and ramp it back up.

Once again, post up that routine of yours! ;)

[bigsteve1974]

Here is my take on all of this. Unless you can post up a routine or routines that didn't work for you there is no way we can help another brother out. So let me just keep taking stabs in the dark....lol

IMO, it is all about adding weight to the bar, especially at your size. So what do we do, you go back to basics.
If I were you, I would do 3 basic exercises twice a week. When you reach your peak we will tweak.

Bench, squats and dead-lifts.
Now most will tell you to take one week off before this, just telling you what most will...he he.

So on each of these exercises I want you to back off the poundage by 20% within the 5-8 rep range.

Each exercise add 5% to it each week and after the 5th week you should be up above your max. If not, back off again and ramp it back up.

Once again, post up that routine of yours! ;)

Good post... what im making from this is .,.. that you are too AFRAID to gain....people in the know are helping here and you just seem to be rejecting everyones comments...:eek:

[CantGain]

Good post... what im making from this is .,.. that you are too AFRAID to gain....people in the know are helping here and you just seem to be rejecting everyones comments...:eek:


That's why I said 'I feel like an ass' because I had a feeling that's how I might be coming across.

I really appreciate you trying to help and I didnt want to come across that way, but you seem to be rubbishing my claims that my problem go beyond diet or training - as far as you're concerned it's one or both of those two aspects of bodybuilding/weight training that are to blame, but after so many years of trying so many cominations when it comes to training in terms of reps, volume and frequency, there's no way it can be.

I'm certainly not scared of gaining, there's nothing I want more.

I was hoping someone might know something about the biochemistry of the body, because there has to be something there.

My training a the moment is twice a week with 3-4 lifts per session with 2 sets per lift, the last set going very close to failure or to failure.

I've tried deloading on numerous routines with no success - I always end up back at the same point with no improvement.

[Dave W]

Cantgain as winger says just stick to basic compound movement go back to basics no one is thinking your an ass . There are 3 main principles to growing training being one eating and resting the most important..

If your training is correct eating more and having enough rest you got to grow.
Even when you say you went up to 3700k if they are clean cals you must have put some muscle on.

Just stick with it .If your test levels are correct you got to grow.How old are you?

Dave

[Mike.R]

Hi CantGain,

I wasnt going to post on this thread because i have nothing to add that all these experienced guys havnt already said. I have read all this thread and may i say you have been given some of the best and most up to date advice anyone could give you. from what i see i would have to agree with bigsteve, everytime someone comes up with an idea or some good advice you have a reason not to follow it.If you dont think its one of the 2 basic ideas ie:- 1, training or 2, diet then its one of the next 2 ie:- 1, you have a medical condition that you may or may not know about and need to seek professional advice or 2, you have some kind of mental block that is stopping you trying any of the advice you have been given. Ive been in this game 20years the advice you have been given on here is top notch and will work in some way for everyone as its all basics there are no big secrets its good diet, hard training and sleep in that order.
If your not willing to try some of the advice on here i guess you may need to take up another sport.

[CantGain]

Cantgain as winger says just stick to basic compound movement go back to basics no one is thinking your an ass . There are 3 main principles to growing training being one eating and resting the most important..

If your training is correct eating more and having enough rest you got to grow.
Even when you say you went up to 3700k if they are clean cals you must have put some muscle on.

Just stick with it .If your test levels are correct you got to grow.How old are you?

Dave


I'm 31 years old.

First started training in 1999, though admitedly, I didnt have a clue about training or diet for a year or so.

I weigh 142lbs @ about 17%

the only lifts I di are:

Deads
Squats
Bench
Pull ups
Curls - 1 set
Skulls - 1 set
Flies

You say I must have put on some muscle, but if I have, then it's so small it's unnoticeable.

[CantGain]

Hi CantGain,

I wasnt going to post on this thread because i have nothing to add that all these experienced guys havnt already said. I have read all this thread and may i say you have been given some of the best and most up to date advice anyone could give you. from what i see i would have to agree with bigsteve, everytime someone comes up with an idea or some good advice you have a reason not to follow it.If you dont think its one of the 2 basic ideas ie:- 1, training or 2, diet then its one of the next 2 ie:- 1, you have a medical condition that you may or may not know about and need to seek professional advice or 2, you have some kind of mental block that is stopping you trying any of the advice you have been given. Ive been in this game 20years the advice you have been given on here is top notch and will work in some way for everyone as its all basics there are no big secrets its good diet, hard training and sleep in that order.
If your not willing to try some of the advice on here i guess you may need to take up another sport.

You're missing the point though - Should I take on board the advice and use it, even though it's something I've tried (and failed with) before?

I first started messing about with dumbells and a barbell almost 10 years ago, admitedlly, I didnt have a clue about training or nutrition back then, but about a year and a half later I was on the right tracks, or at least I thought i was. I read books, websites and educated myself on what needed to be in place.

3 personal trainers and 2 bodybuilding nutrionists later and still nothing but fat gain.

So can you imagine how much Ive tried between now and back then?

I think I better leave this thread as some of you are not understanding me.

Thanks again everyone.

[Mike.R]

Cantgain,

Im not missing the point youve tried everything done everything as a last resort you come on to a bodybuilding forum to ask advice that you not going to take, your wasting good peoples time! As Dave said if you have done a fraction of what you have been advised on here YOU WILL PUT ON MUSCLE.
If as you say you have been training since 1999 and you have had 3 personal trainers and 2 BODYBUILDING nutritionist then you should not only have put on muscle in my oppinion you should have been on stage, if your being honest and you have tried all this before and none of it has ever worked then like i said either you have a medical condition thats stopping your body functioning normal or a mental block stopping you achieving your goals.
If all this have not worked now then it never will, Golf thats the answer.

[bigsteve1974]

Cantgain,

Im not missing the point youve tried everything done everything as a last resort you come on to a bodybuilding forum to ask advice that you not going to take, your wasting good peoples time! As Dave said if you have done a fraction of what you have been advised on here YOU WILL PUT ON MUSCLE.
If as you say you have been training since 1999 and you have had 3 personal trainers and 2 BODYBUILDING nutritionist then you should not only have put on muscle in my oppinion you should have been on stage, if your being honest and you have tried all this before and none of it has ever worked then like i said either you have a medical condition thats stopping your body functioning normal or a mental block stopping you achieving your goals.
If all this have not worked now then it never will, Golf thats the answer.

excellent posts from both dave and mike.... hionestly cantgain... i was 11.10 stone at the age of 20.... thats no bull**** i was playing football at a good level...i could eat what ever i wanted and stay that weight...... so i would have considered myself a hardgainer........ i started weights at around 22 and liked it... now im on stage at 18 + stone... So what im trying to say is I HAVE TRIED ALSMOST evry way you could think of... high amounts of Gear/insulin/Growth/ and only until fairly recently there is one thing i have learned.......FOOD.....even to the point where i have force fed myself.... i train very high intensity.... and im in the gym doing TWO body parts in 45 min......... So to be honest with you..... I DONT think you will find your Answer here.....

P.S..... there is ONE thing that is more important than anything..CONSISTENCY....... EAT/SLEEP/Train...... why do you train just twice a week... are you aiming for strentgh or shape.... remember it aint about the weight in Biodybuilding.......:agree:

steve

[bigsteve1974]

one more thing it is GOOD to see people like yourself post up your prob's and more people should do it.. and trust me you aint getting slated... what we are trying to say is that on this board there are a load of us that compete etc... who REALLY do know there stuff.....but i cant honestly see how if you are following the advice to a T and your not growing then there is something missing... if you are in south wales area then i would be willing to show yopu how to train........ or see how you train...

Steve

[CantGain]

Cantgain,

Im not missing the point youve tried everything done everything as a last resort you come on to a bodybuilding forum to ask advice that you not going to take, your wasting good peoples time! As Dave said if you have done a fraction of what you have been advised on here YOU WILL PUT ON MUSCLE.
If as you say you have been training since 1999 and you have had 3 personal trainers and 2 BODYBUILDING nutritionist then you should not only have put on muscle in my oppinion you should have been on stage, if your being honest and you have tried all this before and none of it has ever worked then like i said either you have a medical condition thats stopping your body functioning normal or a mental block stopping you achieving your goals.
If all this have not worked now then it never will, Golf thats the answer.


I didn't ask for people's advive on nutrition or training - I initially asked whether anyone might have answer as to why I wasnt gaining. I asked about myostatin and the CNS but didn't geta reply to those questions... people continued to talk about my training and diet and offer advice.

not sure about a mental block, I always go to the gym fully focussed and determined to progress but I just dont. Yes it's frustrating, but I'm used to it now.

As for golf, well, that's a sh*t sport lol

I like training, even if I'm not very good at it so will continue whether I make any progress or not.

[CantGain]

excellent posts from both dave and mike.... hionestly cantgain... i was 11.10 stone at the age of 20.... thats no bull**** i was playing football at a good level...i could eat what ever i wanted and stay that weight...... so i would have considered myself a hardgainer........ i started weights at around 22 and liked it... now im on stage at 18 + stone... So what im trying to say is I HAVE TRIED ALSMOST evry way you could think of... high amounts of Gear/insulin/Growth/ and only until fairly recently there is one thing i have learned.......FOOD.....even to the point where i have force fed myself.... i train very high intensity.... and im in the gym doing TWO body parts in 45 min......... So to be honest with you..... I DONT think you will find your Answer here.....

P.S..... there is ONE thing that is more important than anything..CONSISTENCY....... EAT/SLEEP/Train...... why do you train just twice a week... are you aiming for strentgh or shape.... remember it aint about the weight in Biodybuilding.......:agree:

steve

I've been consistent for years!

I cant remember the last time I missed a meal.

I havent missed a training session unless I've been ill and the last time I was ill was over 2 years ago (now Ive said that, I'll have a sore throat tomorrow, so thanks for making me say that lol)

I don't smoke.

I don't drink (unless it's a special occassion, I've been ****ed a couple pf times this year)

I'm now training twice a week to see if I can get anywhere with it, 3 days a week wasnt working so I'll try this for a few more weeks.

[CantGain]

one more thing it is GOOD to see people like yourself post up your prob's and more people should do it.. and trust me you aint getting slated... what we are trying to say is that on this board there are a load of us that compete etc... who REALLY do know there stuff.....but i cant honestly see how if you are following the advice to a T and your not growing then there is something missing... if you are in south wales area then i would be willing to show yopu how to train........ or see how you train...

Steve


I really appreciate that Steve, unfortunately I don't live anywhere near Wales.

I know that you lot are big buggars that do know your stuff, but I'm not sure anyone here (or anywhere else) can give me advice that I havent already tried and that will work.

one of the guys who trained me, he's trained plenty of hardgainers, but he's never trained anyone as growth resistant as me.

It's an absolute arse because being skinny sucks!

Thanks again Steve.

[bigsteve1974]

I really appreciate that Steve, unfortunately I don't live anywhere near Wales.

I know that you lot are big buggars that do know your stuff, but I'm not sure anyone here (or anywhere else) can give me advice that I havent already tried and that will work.

one of the guys who trained me, he's trained plenty of hardgainers, but he's never trained anyone as growth resistant as me.

It's an absolute arse because being skinny sucks!

Thanks again Steve.

o.k then heres one for you... for just one week only try this... each body part so say tomorrow is back.... 100 rep lat pulldowns....thats it.!... then day after chest 100 rep machine press....... then day after 100 rep shoulder press...... and so on.... and i mean 100 reps... all in one go...

then take a week off...... and eat..... dont touch a weight.

steve

[winger]

I'm 31 years old.

First started training in 1999, though admitedly, I didnt have a clue about training or diet for a year or so.

I weigh 142lbs @ about 17%

the only lifts I di are:

Deads
Squats
Bench
Pull ups
Curls - 1 set
Skulls - 1 set
Flies

You say I must have put on some muscle, but if I have, then it's so small it's unnoticeable.
Dump the curls, skulls and flies, they will only hold you back on strength, imo.

I know you said you didn't ask for help in training and diet but not knowing your condition really limits us does it not?

I have no problem helping out and honestly love it, if I can I will try my best and that is all anyone can ask for.

Oh by the way, I will be 49 years old in under a week and I am still getting stronger. I don't do any drugs except weed....lol Been training for almost 33 years and I am that hard gainer. ;)

Oh, I would also warm up progressively (holding back) and do only one set to failure.

You do seem like you know what is going on and please stay on this thread.

Ask away and test us! :)

[Dave W]

Cantgain i am 44 years young mate and have only been training 5 years.Before i started bodybuilding i used to fight in the ring weighing from anything from 65 kilos to 72kilos i listened to people and used to eat anything i could get my hands on and yes i went up to 16.10 but not in great shape but a fat bastard. But i am a Hardgainer as most of us are or were.I cant see it being your cns coz of the ammount of rest you have.
Try compound movements but if you have been doing these i personally cant see it working. You need to shock your body into growth as Steve suggested try the 100 reps mate you will feel pain like you havent felt before but trust me they work.!!
As Mike suggested maybe it is your mind your mind is a powerfull tool !!
There is one thing i can suggest wether not you have tried it i dont know, you say you get fat through excessive carbs so drop your carbs and increase your good fats/oils and use them for energy. Scince being a fat bastard i started to do thing myself and learnt how my body reacts to carbs and fats controling my body fat and hopefully gaining lean muscle. It has been 4 months scince my last comp mate and im still lean i eat **** loads of clean cals but Ihave learnt how my body reacts to food this is one thing you have got to do and try for youself none of us have got any magic secrets on growth but the one thing we have in common is we have learnt ourselves how our body react to certain foods maybe you are jusr carb sensative thats why i suggested dropping your carbs and increasing your good fats/oils

Dave

[winger]

Cantgain i am 44 years young mate
Damn your old. :whistle:

[Dave W]

Mite be old mate but im a good loooking bastard.:lol:

Dave

[winger]

Mite be old mate but im a good loooking bastard.:lol:

Dave
Nice. ;)

[bigsteve1974]

Cantgain i am 44 years young mate and have only been training 5 years.Before i started bodybuilding i used to fight in the ring weighing from anything from 65 kilos to 72kilos i listened to people and used to eat anything i could get my hands on and yes i went up to 16.10 but not in great shape but a fat bastard. But i am a Hardgainer as most of us are or were.I cant see it being your cns coz of the ammount of rest you have.
Try compound movements but if you have been doing these i personally cant see it working. You need to shock your body into growth as Steve suggested try the 100 reps mate you will feel pain like you havent felt before but trust me they work.!!
As Mike suggested maybe it is your mind your mind is a powerfull tool !!
There is one thing i can suggest wether not you have tried it i dont know, you say you get fat through excessive carbs so drop your carbs and increase your good fats/oils and use them for energy. Scince being a fat bastard i started to do thing myself and learnt how my body reacts to carbs and fats controling my body fat and hopefully gaining lean muscle. It has been 4 months scince my last comp mate and im still lean i eat **** loads of clean cals but Ihave learnt how my body reacts to food this is one thing you have got to do and try for youself none of us have got any magic secrets on growth but the one thing we have in common is we have learnt ourselves how our body react to certain foods maybe you are jusr carb sensative thats why i suggested dropping your carbs and increasing your good fats/oils

Dave


Excellent post:agree:

[shakey]

Great Advice Dave;)

[CantGain]

hello again!

well I've continued with the two day a week training and it's gone tits up as usual.

I did wide pull ups with 5kg strapped to my waist for 10 reps, then the following week added 1kg and managed 3 reps.

I was doing deadlifts - but managed 1 rep less than the previous time (the previous time was the same as the workout before that) so switched to rack deads. Last time I did rack deads I managed 102.5kg for 11 reps, this time I managed 3 reps at the same weight.

All other lifts have remianed the same, I havent gone backwards on them but Im not improving either.

Weight has gone up a couple of lbs since I last posted in this thread.

I'm going to chaneg my routine but dont know what to try?

The 100 reps mentioned before - how would I go about this? and how wold I go about progression on it? and does anyone else have any suggestions?

cheers.

[bigsteve1974]

hello again!

well I've continued with the two day a week training and it's gone tits up as usual.

I did wide pull ups with 5kg strapped to my waist for 10 reps, then the following week added 1kg and managed 3 reps.

I was doing deadlifts - but managed 1 rep less than the previous time (the previous time was the same as the workout before that) so switched to rack deads. Last time I did rack deads I managed 102.5kg for 11 reps, this time I managed 3 reps at the same weight.

All other lifts have remianed the same, I havent gone backwards on them but Im not improving either.

Weight has gone up a couple of lbs since I last posted in this thread.

I'm going to chaneg my routine but dont know what to try?

The 100 reps mentioned before - how would I go about this? and how wold I go about progression on it? and does anyone else have any suggestions?

cheers.
cantgain... are you aiming more of the powerlifting side.. or are you aiming for a good body....

I NEVER keep tabs on what i lift.... never have .. i bodybuild so im not interested in what weight i lift at all i never do below 8 reps....

so as an example here say my back workout i did tonight..

wide grip puldowns to warm up. 20 reps.

1:- hammer strength machine pulldowns. 3 sets pyrmaid reps. 1st set of 15 reps. themn increase weight and reduce reps... finishing with a set of 8 reps..

2:- then onto T-bar rows. again increase weight each set finishing with 9 reps.

3:- wide grip pulldowns to front 3 sets
4:- seated rows... high intensity very litle rest in between sets... 3 sets....

took me 30 min... done and dusted...

Steve

[CantGain]

I want size Steve, more than Strength but I doubt I'm going to get bigger lifting the same weight each and every workout. If I can get my bench upto 70kg, I'll be bigger than I am now, so that's what I'm concentrating on.

I've even been using beyond failure tecniques to see if I can progress (but not using these every workout, just occassionally) I just can't get passed where I'm at now.

[winger]

Like I said in the very beginning, if you are not getting stronger you are over training, IMO.

Let's try something different.
Take a weight you can lift for 12 reps but only do 8 reps.
Week two do 9 reps.
Week three do 10 reps and so on. At week 6 you should be doing 13 reps with the weight you were only doing 12 reps with. Keep training till you stall and start all over, any questions?

Us hard gainers have to train smarter not harder, but in a way that's good. We get to do less and still gain.

[CantGain]

I was going to do a deload for a few weeks then build up again - starts @ 75% of my max for say 10 reps, then each week add 5%, then when I'm at the point I'm at now (strengh wise) then go for it again.

I've done this before but just end up at the same point without being able to make any improvments (or if there is an improvement, it's only by a rep or two) and then I'm stuck again.

[bigsteve1974]

I want size Steve, more than Strength but I doubt I'm going to get bigger lifting the same weight each and every workout. If I can get my bench upto 70kg, I'll be bigger than I am now, so that's what I'm concentrating on.

I've even been using beyond failure tecniques to see if I can progress (but not using these every workout, just occassionally) I just can't get passed where I'm at now.


work the muscle then mate.. there is no way on earth one rep is going top wrok your muscle.. in fatc anything under 8 to me is strentgh training....?

triple drop sets,giant sets,, these are muscle builders... not benching 180kg (an example ) for a couple of reps.. I NEVER BENCH... i couldnt tell you how much i can bench... you see what im saying....

steve

[CantGain]

I think you misunderstood Steve - I say I make improvments by a rep or so then I'm stuck again - this is using 8-10 reps.

[Dave W]

I want size Steve, more than Strength but I doubt I'm going to get bigger lifting the same weight each and every workout. If I can get my bench upto 70kg, I'll be bigger than I am now, so that's what I'm concentrating on.

I've even been using beyond failure tecniques to see if I can progress (but not using these every workout, just occassionally) I just can't get passed where I'm at now.
Cantgain dont equate size with strength just coz you mite be able to bench 70k doesnt mean you are bigger.There are days i can use 70k dumbells for 12 reps other i cant use 50k for 10 reps its all about the intensity not the weight,the idea is to feel the weight and fill the muscle not how much weight you use. there are guys i know that use 30lb dumbells for curling but they got hugh arms ,the idea is to BODYBUILD.What i am trying to say is dont let how much weight you can lift be a major factor let the feeling be the main factor.

Dave

[CantGain]

I see what you're sayin Dave, and I know you can get stronger without getting bigger, but to me 12.5kg is a friggin massive amount, so if I did manage to press 70kg, I know I'd be bigger than I am now, I'd have to be. I've been p!ssing about using the same weights for god knows how long, using different rep ranges, different volume, frequency and intensity - I still look like I've never pciked up a dumbell... so going with what you've said, surely I should have grown some muscle by now?


I've been told (by decent trainers) that I need to concentrate on strengh first then the muscle will follow.

I've then been told I won't get any stronger until I've added more muscle.

Now you say it doesnt matter about the weight or strength, just as long as the intensity is there.

Talk about confusing lol

anyway...

I'm going to deload for a few more weeks and then... well, I would say try something new but I dont think there is anything new for me to try other than that 100 repper that was suggested by Steve.. lol

[bigsteve1974]

I see what you're sayin Dave, and I know you can get stronger without getting bigger, but to me 12.5kg is a friggin massive amount, so if I did manage to press 70kg, I know I'd be bigger than I am now, I'd have to be. I've been p!ssing about using the same weights for god knows how long, using different rep ranges, different volume, frequency and intensity - I still look like I've never pciked up a dumbell... so going with what you've said, surely I should have grown some muscle by now?


I've been told (by decent trainers) that I need to concentrate on strengh first then the muscle will follow.

I've then been told I won't get any stronger until I've added more muscle.

Now you say it doesnt matter about the weight or strength, just as long as the intensity is there.

Talk about confusing lol

anyway...

I'm going to deload for a few more weeks and then... well, I would say try something new but I dont think there is anything new for me to try other than that 100 repper that was suggested by Steve.. lol


Have you really tried Pre Exahuast taining, have you tried Giant sets , have you tried triple drop sets......It aint about the weight.....but yoiu have to be able to use enoiugh weight to create enough resistance so your NOT :beer: P!ssing in the wind so to speak...... go onto Bodybuilding.com and take a look at how milos trains his guys..?.. cant say any more than that mate...... Other than that if you REALLY have tried all the above.. then im afraid its time for you to try a different sport that doesnt stress yoiu out so much..... No disrepect to you but NO MATTER what someone says you seem to fire a NEGATIVE answer straight back on every single post... so there is no more that can be done unless your looking for some miracle formula...which you aint ever going to find aprat from CONSISTENCY = Gains............

[Mike.R]

Hi Steve,

Hope your well mate.

Have not posted on this thread for a few pages for the reasons you have said above mainly the fact that cantgain has an answer for everything anyone says then keeps telling us we are missing the point. Your post above pretty much says what i said 2 or 3 pages back.

You guys have been very patient and very helpfull to this guy but i think it is time for cantgain to try something less stressfull, and as with Steve i dont mean that in a disrespectfull way but if the advice that have been given on the last 10 pages dont work nothing will.

cheers Mike.

[CantGain]

well Mike, that's your opinion, you're entitled to it.

just about everything that has been suggsted to me, I've already tried, so what am I supposed to do exactly?

How would you go about posting if you were in my position knowing that everything you had tried is suggested to you again?

It's very difficult not coming across the way I have - as I said in an earlier post - I feel like an ass coming back at everyone with answers.

I'm not a newbie that has only been training a year or two - I've been at it going on ten years - do you honestly think I havent tried much in getting round my problem?

I've tried alsorts and I'm still no nearer knowing what I'm doing wrong.

If you suggest a routine and I've already tried it, should I not tell you that I've tried it so I don't look like an ass?

I've asked about suggestions for new routines, I've asked how to go about the 100 repper that steve suggested, but no ones answerd my questions.

I posted what had recentley happened in the gym (about me going regressing) -- I've been training twice a week, using 4 lifts each session with only one work set, taking it to failure and occassionally using drop sets and negatives - I used this only for a few weeks. Doesn't this suggest that that type of training has fried my CNS? if the answer is 'yes' then my CNS has been fried without me making any improvements using that type of training.

Ironaddict says after training 100s of hardgainers, that this type of training is bad for hardgainers because usually a hardgainer's CNS is too frail for that type of training. I decided to try it anyway and it seems instead of progressing, I've regressed and I've never gone backwards as much as that before.

*cue mike to post to say "look, you're doing it again, bigsteve suggested using drop sets, but you won't accept his or anyone elses advice, you've got an answer for everything*

I don't really know how you expect me to react to suggestions that have already been tried.

Though I'm already taking the advice winger has given me, and I've also asked about the 100 reps that Steve mentioned...

and steve, I've said I'll continue training regardless of the fact I don't gain, I like training, it's part of my life and has been for years, though it would be nice being able to lift more and be a bit bigger.

[CantGain]

Oh, and just reading back - Mike and Steve both suggest I'm right stressful about this? I'm not stressful anymore, it used to **** me off bigtime but I'm immune to it now.

Thanks for trying to help everyone, I appreciate it.

oh, and just one more thing - my regession in the gym tells me I've overtrained, but I dont exactly feel overtrained - what do you feel like when you're overtrained?

[Mike.R]

Cantgain,

Yes it is my opinion but i have never disrespected you ,all im saying is exactly what you have just said yourself, everything that has been sudjested training wise diet wise etc you say you have tried if thats the truth then thats it, ive read this thread over and over to see if anyone have missed anything and i can assure you that they have not you have had some of the best advice available from some top guys if you have tried it all as you say and nothing has worked then i cant see what will work.

I do find your paragraph starting, *cue mike a little sarcastic and also some of it not true, i have said you have an answer for everything because you have the answer being ive tried that or ive done that, but i have not said you wont accept Steves or anyones advice.

Again you have finished your last post with yet another question which is fair enough but its not a question that i would expect from someone who have had 3 personal trainers and been training 9 years, but to answer it i dont overtrain because i know how not to.

I do hope you continue to train and enjoy it, all the best in your endevours,

Mike.

[CantGain]

Well If I got the wrong end of the stick then I apologise, Mike.

So you have never overtrained? ever?

I don't think I have, until the last couple of weeks, hence the reason I was asking for symptoms as I've never experienced this, as like you, I know how not to overtrain... I thought maybe I havent been training hard enough, so pushed the intensity up, but have regressed - now I dont feel overtrained, it's just my lifts have gone backwards - but shouldnt there be other symptoms? that's why I ask.

So I'm not sure what you meant when you said "Again you have finished your last post with yet another question which is fair enough but its not a question that i would expect from someone who have had 3 personal trainers and been training 9 years"

Why is that exactly?

[Dave W]

To me there is no such thing as overtraining just under eating and resting.

100 REPS Bench press with bar
100 reps Shoulder press
100 reps lat pull downs
100 reps leg extensions
100 reps leg press
100 reps dead lifts
all these done with a weight you can do 100 reps with or keep removing the weight till you get to 100 reps .Musclke just goes numb thats it

Dave

[CantGain]

Hi Dave,

Well if you underrest, isn't that just another way of saying 'overtraining' ? :D

while my strength has been decreasing, my weight has been increasing, and I only train 2 days a week, so if over training doesnt exist, why is this happening?

Thanks for posting that up, but how many days would I peform that? how would I split it? how would I progress, just hope to add reps? what would be considered decent progression?

[bigsteve1974]

Well If I got the wrong end of the stick then I apologise, Mike.

So you have never overtrained? ever?

I don't think I have, until the last couple of weeks, hence the reason I was asking for symptoms as I've never experienced this, as like you, I know how not to overtrain... I thought maybe I havent been training hard enough, so pushed the intensity up, but have regressed - now I dont feel overtrained, it's just my lifts have gone backwards - but shouldnt there be other symptoms? that's why I ask.

So I'm not sure what you meant when you said "Again you have finished your last post with yet another question which is fair enough but its not a question that i would expect from someone who have had 3 personal trainers and been training 9 years"

Why is that exactly?

hi mike im o.k thanks... just training every other day and going with the flow and seems to be working...i train When i want to train now.. in NO set routine and im finding this great...

CANTGAIN... where did you say you are from.... if you are llocal to cardiff etc then hows about a training session and lets show you what i mean by 100 reps... the way i take it the way you train is STRENTGH training.... we have fast and slow twitch fibres mate... USE THEM All.......!!!!... mike gelsei would be a good guy to step in here,, this guy trains like an animal...INETSITY aint the word.... tel you what i will ask him to join.....:agree:

Steve

[CantGain]

I know steve, I did the muscle fibre test which suggests I'm predominantly slow twitch, though I don't know how accurate it is.

I've usually trained from using 3 reps upto 20, but nothing beyond 20 really (to try and hit them all)

I've used routines such as A1, A2, B1, B2 using different rep ranges (high and low) for the same bodypart on different days. so A1 I'd do 15-20 reps on chest, then on A2 I'd do 5-8 reps on chest also.

I'll give that a go though, it's something new and as Ive said - Im open to things I've not tried and this is one of them.

Would love to hear any other suggestions if there are any!

[bigsteve1974]

I know steve, I did the muscle fibre test which suggests I'm predominantly slow twitch, though I don't know how accurate it is.

I've usually trained from using 3 reps upto 20, but nothing beyond 20 really (to try and hit them all)

I've used routines such as A1, A2, B1, B2 using different rep ranges (high and low) for the same bodypart on different days. so A1 I'd do 15-20 reps on chest, then on A2 I'd do 5-8 reps on chest also.

I'll give that a go though, it's something new and as Ive said - Im open to things I've not tried and this is one of them.

Would love to hear any other suggestions if there are any!


TRY THIS... chest as an example......
1:- Cable cross overs... first set warm up as many reps as possible until you physically cant do anymore......aim fopr over 50.
2:- cable x overs.. as heavy as possible. do as many reps as you can aiming for 8 to 10 but a real struggle.
3:- then immediatlye drop the stack by half and do as many reps as possible. then same again drop stack and hit out as many as possible..
4:- then same again.... keep going to absolute failure.


Execrise 2:- Machine press. As heavy as you can rep range 8-10.
immediatley drop weight .. again gor for as many reps as possible.. (always keeping strict form).
then drop weight again and go again.. until absolute failure....

CHEST DONE........ see how you get on with that do this for just one week....then i would take the following week rest.

then go back to basic training..... CANTGAIN.. one thing you have to get out of your head.. why is it such a BIG deal what weight you lift Who gives a f*ck... keep the ego outside the gym... get yourself into your own zone and forget whats going on around you in th gym....i look at people benching alot more than me BUT half the size....:whistle:

[CantGain]

Steve, I'm not sure if you've read all my posts today - but wouldnt using tripple drop sets be the wrong thing for me at the moment? I've been using training using failure/drop sets and negatives and my training has gone completely backwards over the last 2 weeks.

I know you said do that once, then have a week off... but wouldn't I be hammering my CNS into the ground if I did this now?

[Dave W]

No you wouldnt be hammering your cns training this way its quick and smart training. Going back to your diet how can you get fat if you drop your carbs and use essencial fats and oils for energy how do you think us guys get ready for a show and still retain our muscle.

We have mentioned nearly every training regime which we use and diets but you still get fat and cant grow.

Have you tried 5x5 training ?

I Just give up mate everything has been suggested diet supplementation training either your not doing it to the letter or i dont know what if you cant grow on gear when everything else is right you aint going to grow full stop.

Dave

[CantGain]

I've tried Bill Starr's 5x5 training but got nowhere Dave.

diet - well if you overeat no matter what it is whether it's fats and protein and low carbs, you will get fat which is what happens to me whilst not gaining strength.

I've said that after training to failure and using beyond failure tecniques my training has regressed, it's never gone backwards like this before, and you're still telling me to train that way - it doesnt make sense to me.


I've been under the impression that training to failure is bad for hardgainers, and that is partly down to what I read below. below is a piece by a guy who has trained many hardgainers.




First things first. MOST lifters that beleive they are hardgainers just don't have a handle on their diet and training. If all is dialed and results suck--then they just might be an actual hardgainer. Here is some info covering that.

I see posts very frequently by guys that are just completely CLUELESS about the role genetics play in how one responds to training. These posts USUALLY come from one of two types of people. Guys with great genetics that have never had training partners that didn’t, or have never worked with a group of lifters over the long-term, and young guys that REALLY, REALLY want to believe that they can be the next Arnold, Yates, or Coleman.

Here are just SOME of the factors that ultimately determine how big and strong you get, and what paths are appropriate to get you there:

Cortisol output
Adrenaline output
Insulin output
insulin sensitivity
Thyroid output
Thyroid sensitivity
Testosterone production
Testosterone/hormone sensitivity
Testosterone to estrogen conversion
SHGB sensitivity
Testosterone to DHT conversion
Estrogen sensitivity
Growth Hormone output
Growth Hormone sensitivity
IGF output
IGF sensitivity
Digestive capability
Basic protein synthesis ability
Muscle fiber composition
CNS output
CNS recovery rate
Digestive capacity

AND A WHOLE BUNCH MORE


ALL THESE FACTORS ARE ALL DETERMINED BY AN INDIVIUALS GENETICS. AND THEY DON’T VARY A LITTLE, THEY VARY A LOT. AND THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE!

Take a guy that has very little fast twitch fibers, or just very little muscle fibers compared to the average person, or well above average person and this person is NEVER, NEVER going to have anywhere NEAR the growth potential of someone that has more fiber to begin with no matter HOW BIG they hypertrophy them.

Oh, just add steroids and the below average guy is even. WRONG again. In the Soviet Union where the state spent much time researching these issues, they determined that hormone (steroid) sensitivity varied as much as 2 to 4 times. Which means the response and thus results one guy might get from a gram of gear would take 4 grams for another person to achieve. And these were highly technical studies carried out with good controls. Not what a bunch of gym meatheads observed. YES, THAT IS genetics in action.

To say genetics only accounts for a small degree of the achieved results is just PLAIN FLAT OUT WRONG AND ANY GOOD STRENGTH COACH OR SPORTS PHYSIOLIGIST WILL TELL YOU THAT.

This does NOT mean you cannot make great progress or build a great body, but it does mean that most just simply don’t have the potential to be top bodybuilders. And EVERYONE responds differently. I am not trying to rain on anyone’s parade, and potential can only be known in retrospect AFTER you have tried. But all these posts by guys saying genetics are not important and guys just use them as an excuse is pure BS

OK, so maybe you haven’t been dealt the best hand. Well, you got what you got. Now you have to make the best of it, and guess what? Many hardgainers do a LOT of things that are CONTRARY to their goals.

I am going to deal with ectos’ this time and leave the endo’s for another article. We have two archetypical types on ectos. Skinny ectos, ectos and skinny-fat ectos. These guys are all over the place and are very often the types that are drawn to bodybuilding because they are dissatisfied with their skinny physiques. Then once entering the bodybuilding world they are quickly left out in the cold and alone as far as applicable information goes as the mainstream publications focuses on genetic elite lifters doing lots of steroids. Hardly the proper role model for a hardgainer with genetic disadvantages.

I look at quite a bit of lab results from hardgaining lifters and in a good amount of the cases thyroid levels are high, test levels are low, and cortical is high and in skinny-fat hardgainers estrogen levels are high, and glucose tolerance is in the toilet along with high cortisol levels topping things off. Sleep and stress are usually bad for both types. Pretty simple—you can’t get there from here. At least not at a pace that makes anyone even marginally happy.

From a physical standpoint work capacity levels are most often dismally low and CNS is very delicate. And most hardgainers make matters worse by doing either way too much tonnage or way too much intensity—bad mojo!

So what is the answer to this dilemma? Well it would take a book to cover all bases but in the most simplistic terms here is what has to happen.

Skinny Hardgainer
Training load suited to recovery. Usually low volume and frequency without training to failure.
Work capacity MUST BE BROUGHT UP—THIS IS CRITICAL!!
All stimulants cut out!
Stress reduction techniques used.
Sleep habits improved
Supplementation suited to needs
Eating brought up to a level that exceeds maintenance with at LEAST 1.5 grams protein per lb of bodyweight. THIS SOLVES MANY, MANY hardginers primary issue immediately. If thyroid is too high, diet must be higher!

Skinny-Fat Hardgainer
Training load suited to recovery. Usually low volume and frequency without training to failure.
Work capacity MUST BE BROUGHT UP—THIS IS CRITICAL!!
All stimulants cut out!
Stress reduction techniques used.
Sleep habits improved
Eating brought up to a level that at least meets maintenance with at LEAST 1.5 grams protein per lb of bodyweight
Supplementation suited to needs
GLUCOSE TOLERANCE/INSULIN SENSITIVITY BROUGHT UP!

One of the biggest mistakes hardgainers make is first understanding they are hardgainers, tailoring the workload to their limited recovery, and then NEVER attempting to raise their work capacity. While that approach works in the short term, it s poison over the long term. That type of loading is needed in the beginning, and may be needed for a long time, but if it is never raised you will find yourself stuck soon and again be blaming your genetics on something you had control over.

Another HUGE mistake hardgainers make is too high of intensity level training. MOST HG’s have pretty frail CNS recovery. One of the reasons many of you are "hardgainers" is simply that you always train to failure, or to very high percentages of your momentary capacity. Lots of you just do not have the CNS recovery to do so and by training in that range, you are never really ready from a CNS standpoint. And simply put, if CNS isn't ready, nothing is going to happen.
QUIT BEATING A DEAD HORSE.
These steps will go a long way towards making one an “average gainer” if you will take the time to implement them.



What are your thoughts on this?

[Mike.R]

Hi Dave,

Glad to see im not the only one getting frustrated, i think everyone that have taken time to reply with very good advice have been very patient with this guy, yet again in his last few post more throw backs finished with more questions and after all the good advice hes been given he posts an article by "someone who has trained many hardgainers" well follow it mate, o forgot you probably have.

[Dave W]

Hi Mike hows things.

Got to agree with you Mike just dont know what to suggest any more . I cant see any one not gaining if diet training and rest is bang on. You have just got to grow even if its a small improvement. Take care Mike hope to see you soon mate.

Dave

[CantGain]

Hi Dave,

Glad to see im not the only one getting frustrated, i think everyone that have taken time to reply with very good advice have been very patient with this guy, yet again in his last few post more throw backs finished with more questions and after all the good advice hes been given he posts an article by "someone who has trained many hardgainers" well follow it mate, o forgot you probably have.


Hi Mike,

Yes, you're right, I did follow it- he (iron addict www.ironaddicts.com ) trained me for 20 odd months and I didnt get anywhere, so I quit training with him and decided to try a routine in which I trained to failure, and occassionally tried drop sets, negatives etc, again I just added fat.

So that's why I'm so confused - he says hardainers should never train to failure becausethe CNS just can't cope with it, I've also read that elsewhere, then I read articles saying that hardgainers should use short + intense workouts, which you also agree with.

I've tried both and just don't seem to get anywhere with either.

I posted the article above, because it's obviously something some of you dont agree with, so I wanted to know your thoughts on the article (but again, I didnt get an answer)

I'm thinking about trying 10x10 for 3 weeks followed by low volume + high inensity for 2-3 weeks, taking a week off then repeating - how does that sound to you guys?

That's if I decide not to cut (I've posted in another thread about that)

If that fails, then I'll might try 20-30 rep sets.

[winger]

All you can do is try some new stuff and find something that will work for ya.